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1 Ryu's rants on Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:34 pm

Ryumimi

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So I had this thread once before and it was just kinda a place to come and share my thoughts with people about stuff and get feedback from people... It was pretty fun, at least for me so yah know... Here it is again.

Today's topic-

Takeover: Why it's bad, and what I plan to do about it.

The following is the first draft of a post I'll be making in orion's lab to suggest changes TO once it's more presentable. I love this magic and I hate to see it get shafted.
So... For some reason TO is pretty shit, not gonna lie. Let's talk about why though.

The rant:


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Takeover Rules wrote:Take-Over allows the user to, essentially, use the power of an entity and use it to fight. This magic is limited to a single element and can't create buff spells but instead has a passive buff that is applied to the user when transforming.

So just here we have a couple of issues. The first one is that TO is element locked. It wouldn't be so bad if the other issue wasnt here, which is to say the lack of the ability to create other buffing spells.

TO on this forum is subject to the bonus damage granted by slayer magic. That's not a problem per say, but it does mean that it shouldn't be bad on top of having a hard counter in the magic department.  If a TO user meets their soul's slayer and the two share an element you can see where the elemental lock becomes a more serious issue, but it's a fair one. Though we've seen TO that has no element, and we've seen it have dual elements sooooo... Yeah...

Still, I digress. What I want to focus on right now is the lack of buffing magic on a magic that's key feature is buffs and subspells.

There doesn't appear to be any rules against buffing for other magics, even ones that aren't specifically made for them, so why would TO be any different? This is a limited magic, yet it's rules are limiting the player rather than empowering them.

In the animals the first taste of TO we get is when Elfman goes bull beast mode, gaining an impressive increase to his physical strength as well as his durability. The next big show we get, and whom I'll be focusing on largely throughout my argument is Mirajane.

In her first use of takeover against freed Mirajane's transformation enables her to soundly beat the shit of him. She's faster than him, AND stronger than him. Implying that soul she used was both fast and strong. Two buffs, if one were to translate this to a mechanic. You could argue that Elfman's transformations also provide a host of buffs to himself as he takes on his monsters.

If take over can't be allowed to multi buff than it should be allowed at least 3 or more buffs. For a complete TO it'll offer them all in a package deal, 3 for the price of 1 and in the case of partial species spells they can use multiple parts of the same TO that each offer a buff related to that part, and a supplementary spell effect such as flight, or armor.

Or ya know... TO could just be allowed to multi buff. Because that actually makes sense.


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Rules on sustained spells wrote:The max duration a spell can be sustained is 6 posts but it has to be mentioned when registering the spell.

This is a blatant flaw in the TO design that seems to have been overlooked. It isn't specified if it ignores this rule. If it doesn't, this would mean every TO, regardless of spell strength only lasts 6 posts. Furthermore, subspells you have would have to be cast in these 6 posts otherwise you've effectively wasted the potential of the transformation.

I'm not entirely certain how spell cooldowns work, but if they begin when the spell is cast then this shouldn't be a huge problem. But if they begin from when a spell ends than this would make anyone using TO a sitting duck after 6 posts as they wait for their forms to come off cooldown. That in itself isn't a problem but with the way TO is currently set up its just too costly a sacrifice to be left ineffective 6 posts into a fight.

Not only that, but it could argued that this makes it a poor idea to create higher ranked spells. The problem here is that TO lacks scaling for higher ranked makes, which is absurd as we see the mages who practice this magic hold their own, and often times beat, a supposedly stronger opponent.

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Speaking of lack of scaling;
Dragon Soul rules wrote:This particular form of Magic allows the user to Take Over dragon-type creatures. Dragon Slayer magic does one rank extra damage when the magic is being used. The difference with other Take-Over magics is that sub-spells cost 5 mana less to cast

I would have loved to picked dragon soul. I practically invented it back on ftrp. But this difference is insulting. 5 less mana to cast is pitiful, especially once spells start costing more than 10 mana. This should be 5 per rank of spell, so that way this option doesn't make high rank TO absolute garbage in comparison to Mecha or Daemon soul.

Tl;dr

Things Takeover SHOULD do
- multi buff
- Ignore sustain spell rules (for buffs)
- Dual Elements
- 50% off spell costs for sub spells

Things Takeover SHOULDN'T do
- Debuff
- Heal
- Suck

Like I said, once I've done more research on what TO is capable of, and how that should translate into fair game play I'll be formally suggesting these changes to the powers that be. I hope to make my argument convincing and get some much needed changes to the Magic. I want to cover everything, so that way it doesn't need to be revisited constantly.

Will probably work on other magic too if it looks kinda useless. I don't know...


Love, Ryu

2 Re: Ryu's rants on Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:03 pm

Naga

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I apologize for whatever misconduct happened here in this thread. Feel free to submit your ideas, Ryu.

Lesson for everyone: Debating ideas and giving arguments is fine but flaming is not allowed.

3 Re: Ryu's rants on Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:04 pm

Northot

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Hi there, friendly neighborhood Take Over mage Northot here to provide a little input.

I think some good points were made here, although I don't agree with some of the proposed solutions.

First, I'd like to mention what I think are the issues with takeover that require compensation to make it a good limited magic. Take Over has high MP costs because it requires the user to take a form that must be sustained in order to cast their spells, because spells are specific to a certain species it is important and difficult to organize a spell library, and there should be advantages and disadvantages to using partial takeovers opposed to fullbody ones. I do not feel that these limitations have been adequately compensated in the current rule system, similarly to Ryumimi.

That said, I don't believe that multi-buffs, multi-elements, and 50% cost of subspells are ideal solutions for this either. As we saw on FTRP, the 50% cost of subspells led to a massively disproportionate ability to conserve MP. That said, I think that some sort of MP cost reduction is necessary to compensate for the limitations of Take Over, or something that provides an adequate compensation for this.

Multibuffs are certainly a powerful concept, and we've seen them get overpowered in other iterations of the system. I don't think that an S rank take over should have three, or even two S rank levels of buff. However, if partial take overs had reduced MP cost and were capable of being stacked, that might be a solution. Or perhaps multibuffs at reduced power compared to the rank of the spell. Dragon slayers get reduced elemental damage, and absorption powers. Re-Quip users gain durability in their sets the more spells that are associated with a single set. Perhaps individual species of Take Over could gain strength or abilities based on attached subspells. As of now, we don't have any compensation aside from the gimmicky themes, which are grossly unbalanced in power.

I agree with Ryumimi on the point that Take Overs should not be subject to the current cooldown and sustained spell rules however. It is my belief that fullbody take overs should have no cool downs, and partial takeovers should have cooldowns but be capable of being stacked within the same species. I don't think that cool downs are necessary for full body take overs, because it is important to allow Take Over mages to switch between forms in order to make full use of their species spells. This is especially true at higher ranks, such as using an X rank take over. After exiting that form, the user would be locked out of all the sub spells they'd created for that take over for the rest of the thread, which in some cases might be a third, or even half of their spells. Some might say that this was a misjudgement on the user's part in creating their spell library, but we shouldn't punish users who want to use their high rank spells on forms, and create highly varied subspells for only a few forms. Take Over should allow for versatility in exchange for the compartmentalized abilities of each form.

Thank you, and good night.

P.S. I guess I forgot to cover the multi-element portion. I don't feel take over should be restricted to one element, as someone with Daemon soul might want a fire, lightning, and wind demon, which I think should be acceptable. However, I only use darkness element, so I don't care. #Selfservingbutstilltriestobefair

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